Curse

arredondo · Mar 26, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

To give the Assassin a little more pizazz behind his profession of choice, I came up with this idea:

Quote:

Stalker (Stance): For 1..6 [7] seconds, you move 75% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 45 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

The enchantment clause prevents cheesy tactics like teleporting away easily after getting your combos in or if it doesn't work (evasion, etc.). It lasts a short time to not be abuseable if you don't get your setup going, and the long recharge also aids in making it balanced. Still, it'll be an awesome skill when combined with stuff like Critical Defenses (a high chance to block with each critical hit). Getting a speed skill like Frenzy adds to the madness.

What do you guys think? Shouldn't an assassin be able to "stalk" his victim to do extra damage?

Siren · Mar 26, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

I'd imagine it'd also make the Assassin invisible to Tabbing through targets, holding Control, etc?

And also, 75% slower? I couldn't imagine this skill being useful then. Max 7-second duration, with 75% slower movement. I fail to see how you could use this in combat. 7 seconds of "invisibility" isn't going to do anything when you're moving 75% slower. The only times this would be useful are if you're right next to your target, or within a distance you can cover in...7 seconds. But with a 75% reduction in speed? You're not going to cover any ground with it.

Plus, unless this skill makes you completely invisible, as in even to the players themselves (a "You go poof!" kind of thing), it seems purely like a cool factor skill.

You can't use it to sneak around, due to the movement reduction and low duration, so forget about working your way around an alternate path in Warrior's Isle during guild battles, or even in HoH. Those 7 seconds will be up very quickly, and you'll not have gotten far at all.

You can't use it when you're in the middle of combat, because if you don't become completely invisible (like a Predator-esque thing, though not with the shimmeries), your enemies can still see you, physically. And if they can still see you physically, I don't see why they couldn't attack you.

But even if you do become like the Predator, that doesn't really matter, because when you're moving at 1/4 your speed, nobody will give a shit, I think. We see what Imagined Burden, Deep Freeze, etc., can do to movement, so invisibility doesn't improve the skill anyway. Even when your enemies can't see you, even if they kite in a minimal fashion, you're screwed. Even if they end up running toward you.

So...yeah. I'm not feeling this skill. The movement reduction is counter productive, as is the duration I think, and the recharge, as well.

I think the idea behind the skill is good. Stalking in-game is fun. As my Assassin, I kind of pretend I do it already, keeping to the shadows, the plants along the walls, etc.

But I don't think it's feasible in this current form (and for an Elite it's absolute crap, I think). You basically need Death's Charge or something similar, and a Cripple attack to make it minimally desirable in your skill bar.

My suggestions are something like the following.

Quote:

Stalker (Stance): For 1-15 seconds, you move 5-20% faster and you are concealed from all eyes except other Assassins. When you approach an enemy for melee combat, you lose your speed boost and move 20% slower. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 30 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

You might be able to bring the recharge back up to 45 seconds with those revisions, but apart from that, I think it's a step in the right direction with a skill of this nature.

Oh, incidentally, since this skill is "practicing the art of invisibility," shouldn't it have a more...I don't know...Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle-ish name? I remember Splinter harping on "the art of invisibility" after all. Perhaps Rat's Wager? Way of the Rat? Rat's Wager sounds like it'd be an appropriate name, given the trade-off when you get in range, but Way of the Rat sounds pretty cool, too. lol

Falcon213 · Mar 26, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Stalker (Elite stance): For 3...7 seconds, you move 60...30% slower and are invisible*. When Stalker ends, for 3 seconds all of your dagger attacks are critical hits and cannot be blocked or evaded. Stalker ends if you attack.

10e, 45s recharge

*Includes radar, tab, ctl, npcs, etc

^ My version.

The second one is way too powerful, and the first one doesn't give enough time to both get there and attack. Attacking while invisible, however, is unrealistic.. if you attack someone, they're going to know that you're there. So instead, my version gives a few seconds of time where the target would be unable to respond (should be two attacks, 3 with 33% speed boost). It definately needs to be an elite, and have a nice long recharge time because it could be responsible for single-handedly killing a target, especially if there are two running in tandem.

The only problem is that, to my understanding, the assassin and rit won't be getting any more skills after factions. I may be wrong, especially if an expansion comes out without any new classes.

arredondo · Mar 26, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Because of the damage, you have to gimp it as I did. Your version gives it too much because of the unavoidable Critical hits stacking on them. The only thing about my original version is that you can't use speed attacks like Flurry/Frenzy because they are stances too. Otherwise, I like most of what it does. If it needs to be buffed a bit, I'll change it this way:

Quote:

Stalker (Stance): For 3..9 [11 at L16] seconds, you move 50% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 45 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

How's that? More time and not as slow. You can do a build like this:

==========================
As/X

Critical Strikes: 11
Dagger Mastery: 15
Shadow Arts: 11

Dark Prison: Shadow Step to foe, he moves 33% slower for five seconds
Stalker Stance {E}: 9 seconds worth
Black Mantis Thrust: 20 damage, Cripple for 16 seconds
Jungle Strike: 51 total damage on a Cripple
Repeating Strike: 20 damage per spammed attack
Twisting Fangs: 11+11 plus Deep Wound for about 122 total
Shadow Refuge: Evade 50% attacks for 4 seconds, then heal for 96
Rez
==========================

Cast Dark Prison and go into Stalker Stance when you appear, attack with BMT to stack for -66% speed debuff (slow enough for your -50% speed to chase), JS for cripple damage bonus, then as many Repeating Strikes as you can before Twisting Fangs spikes for damage. Assuming you get four repeating strikes in and Crits connect for 30 damage each time, you do:

273 base damage (on 60 AL) and 240 for all Crits = 513 damage. You are also getting 2E with each Crit attack (+16E total here), so you are always ready to dish out damage once your skills recharge. Shadow Refuge is to give you some protection and healing as you battle. You can also cast Dark Prison on a distant, harmless foe (a Monk) if you need a breather from a pursuer (or simply Cripple him instead).

Nevin · Mar 26, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Stalker (Stance): For 3..9 seconds, you move 33% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 45 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

And another..

One with the Shadow (Stance): For 3...15 seconds you move 33% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. One with the shadow ends if you are sucessfully attacked, or attack.

Siren · Mar 26, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Cast Dark Prison and go into Stalker Stance when you appear, attack with BMT to stack for -66% speed debuff (slow enough for your -50% speed to chase)

What's stopping the target from getting Dark Prison removed, and getting the Cripple removed? It seems like this entire tactic would be really obvious to the other team. All of a sudden one of their teammates has Dark Prison, and is Crippled, and yet there are no enemies visible? That'll be a priority hex and condition removal right there, if not the very top priority.

The duration is certainly better, but I think Nevin's 33% slower is correct. Remember that most Shadow Stepping (from what I've seen and done) requires spell-casting range (in the area I believe), so already, you're right in front of the target before you go into Stalker mode. They'll see you Shadow Step up, then go invisible. Pretty big announcement for what you want to do, and kind of defeats the purpose of being invisible, eh?

TheYellowKid · Mar 26, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

personally i think if something like this was gonna be implemented the speed would have to go the other way and not change or be increased slightly.

to balance it out maybe have a counter in there aswell like any attacks on you in stalker are increased slightly

Ninetail Trickster · Mar 26, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

For a speed decrease, you'd have to up the potential length of the stance... maybe change its attribute to Shadow Arts as opposed to Critical? Just seems more... shadowy, even with the critical hit element. Just my two ecto. Very, very good idea- I was somewhat surprised to find that the Assassins didn't have a blatant stealth-walk move.
My only gripe is that you think they need more pizazz. I mean, good grief, they have a Naruto hairstyle.

arredondo · Mar 26, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What's stopping the target from getting Dark Prison removed, and getting the Cripple removed? It seems like this entire tactic would be really obvious to the other team. All of a sudden one of their teammates has Dark Prison, and is Crippled, and yet there are no enemies visible? That'll be a priority hex and condition removal right there, if not the very top priority.

The duration is certainly better, but I think Nevin's 33% slower is correct. Remember that most Shadow Stepping (from what I've seen and done) requires spell-casting range (in the area I believe), so already, you're right in front of the target before you go into Stalker mode. They'll see you Shadow Step up, then go invisible. Pretty big announcement for what you want to do, and kind of defeats the purpose of being invisible, eh?

I just gave one sample build. An advanced team can make their own tactics. For instance, switch out Dark Prison for Spirit Walk. Now you can teleport to the vicinity of the enemy undetected if you go into Stalker stance upon arrival. This time you're using a spirit (theirs, yours, whatever) in the heat of the battle to get in close from radar range, not an opponent's radar range. With 50% speed (as opposed to 33%), you have to sneak in close to do your damage, so choose your spirit wisely.

While I'm at it, here are perfect new skills for Stalker stance:

Quote:

Merciless Cutthroat (Lead Attack): If this attack hits, you strike for +(3..9 [10 at L16]) damage. If it hits an opponent from behind, you deal an additional 20..86 [107 at L16] damage and inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 5..17 [21 at L16)] seconds.

15E, 0 Cast, 12 sec. recharge.
Dagger Mastery attribute line.

That's over 40% gone if MC connects at L16 (217 on a 500 HP opponent), but as an initial spike instead of an ending one, the Deep Wound has time to be removed before the combo of choice finishes. No Deep Wound is inflicted if not attacking their six (rear) for a net 10 damage. And finally this skill:

Quote:

Incognito (Skill): For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent. Incognito ends if you cast a spell or attack with a weapon other than knives.

5E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

I dunno, it seems cool to me.

If anyone's played Enemy Territory (awesome Castle Wolfenstein mod), you know that despite other clues to give you away, it's possible to mingle with the enemy undetected while disguised if you plan it smartly (they only let you appear as another spy though). I'd use this skill in GW to get in close while everyone's fighting in the vicinity of the backline target.

The different att lines here forces you to spread your points some. A sample build with all of these might be....

======================================
As/X

Dagger Mastery: 15
Critical Strikes: 11
Shadow Arts: 11

Incognito: Look like random enemy for 18 secs.
Spirit Walk: Shadow step close to enemy by way of a spirit.
Stalker: Move slow, but undetected for 9 seconds. All hits deliver Criticals
Merciless Cutthroat: Lead attack, 10+102 damage plus 16 sec. Deep Wound if hits from behind
Golden Phoenix Strike: Off-hand, 30 damage to enchanted foe
Death Blossom: Dual hit with 26 AoE damage
Shadow Refuge: Evade 50% attacks for 4 secs. and heal for 96
======================================

Visually target enemy whose near a spirit from a distance. Change clothes via Incognito, Spirit Walk to enemy's area. Immediately go into Stalker stance to conceal you on the radar. Creep behind target and open with Merciless Cutthroat. Continue with Golden Phoenix Strike on the enchanted enemy and end with Death Blossom. With any remaining Stalker time, use normal attacks for Critical blows each time.

Total damage (including 20 damage for criticals) if executed perfectly is:

MC: 112+10+100+20= 232
GP: 30+20= 50
DB: 26+26+20+20= 92

TOTAL: 374 damage in about 5 seconds of melee. Each Crit normal strike after does 20 damage until Stalker Stance wears out.

You can get all that damage too if you simply go behind a KD'd opponent for the first hit... it would indeed be a lot of damage in a short time, but not enough to instantly solo kill to keep it fair for the opponent's response.

Siren · Mar 27, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I just gave one sample build. An advanced team can make their own tactics. For instance, switch out Dark Prison for Spirit Walk. Now you can teleport to the vicinity of the enemy undetected if you go into Stalker stance upon arrival. This time you're using a spirit (theirs, yours, whatever) in the heat of the battle to get in close from radar range, not an opponent's radar range. With 50% speed (as opposed to 33%), you have to sneak in close to do your damage, so choose your spirit wisely.

I don't think the specifics of a build matter all that much here, though. The problem isn't what the other skills in the build do. The problem here is this one skill you've suggested requires three other skills just to make it viable. It's not that I believe one skill should be able to be an entire build; I just don't think Stalker is as solid a skill as you think...or as balanced.

I mean, let's say the team uses Spirit Walk instead. How is that going to make Stalker any more viable? You need to target a spirit, but most teams I've seen don't stray all that far from their spirits, unless the opposing team is able to pull them away. So chances are, the opposing team will still be relatively close to your target spirit, right? Which means you'll still be entering their own radar ranges when you Spirit Walk.

But how are you getting up to that spirit? How are you getting in range without them detecting you? You're invisible to their radar, okay, but you're moving 50% slower and you're only invisible for a total of 11 seconds.

Realistically, will that even work in a place like Warrior's Isle? It takes a character with no speed boosts a couple of seconds to cover the distance from the boat to the flag stand, correct? If those characters are running at normal speed, how is this Stalker Assassin ever going to reach his or her target in under 11 seconds, with a 50% speed reduction?

You can Shadow Step, Spirit Walk, etc., up to the target, then go into Stalker?

That still requires getting there, which means getting within radar distance long before you "go silent." Which means if your opponents are smart, they'll see you long before you can get Stalker up and running. After all, the range of the full radar dwarfs the range required for Shadow Stepping, Death's Charge, etc.

And if you do go into Stalker before they can react to the substantial warning flag, they'll still be able to see that something is weird, correct? Or do most players not pay attention to their radars, with red blips approaching, then disappearing? I'm asking a serious question here, because I've seen it half-and-half, but in PvP, I find many players pay attention to as much of the radar and red cons as they can.

The skill just doesn't sound like an actual Stalker mode. The goal of this skill is to be invisible, and yet in order to use it, you're rarely going to be invisible, due to the speed reduction, the short duration, and the tactics required to get in range so you can use the skill. It just seems counter-intuitive for a skill that's supposed to make you invisible to everyone except fellow Assassins, that's all.

I guess it's that the end doesn't justify the means.

The more I think about it, the more I think my suggestion was more in the right direction than the other variations. You desperately need to be able to get in range quickly for this skill to work. Spirit Walking, Shadow Stepping, etc, can only do so much. I think it'd be worth considering the idea that you need a speed boost for this skill initially, then you can start tip-toeing when you get in range.

Hell, something like the following:

Quote:

Shadow Stalker (Stance): For 1-20 seconds, you move 5-15% faster. When you approach an enemy for melee combat, you enter shadow form, concealed from all eyes except other Assassins. You lose the speed boost and move 20% slower than your normal speed. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Shadow Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or become enchanted.

5E, 0 cast time, 45 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

arredondo · Mar 27, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

The idea is an assassin getting a surprise gank on the opponent. Assassins don't get their best opportunities through speed - I'm not creating another sprint Warrior here. if tweaks are made, it's to maximize the unique style of the Assassin, class, not make a cookie cutter DPS machine with traditional tactics.

Still, I'll accommodate some of your concerns this way:

Quote:

Shadow Stalker (Stance): For 3..9 [11 at L16] seconds, you move 50% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 30 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

Quote:

Incognito (Skill): For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent, and you appear on any enemy's radar as their team color. Incognito ends if you cast a spell or attack with a weapon other than knives.

10E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

OK, now as an enemy in disguise, you are free to move among your foes unless they are really paying attention with Incognito alone. If you Spirit Walk while in disguise, they don't see what's up unless they are checking names or head counting (or recognize their twin, lol). I adjusted the stats a bit to reflect Shadow Stalker's removed component (30s recharge now). I like your name change to Stalker Stance BTW.

Now you can hang out in the back of enemy territory, waiting for the chance to gank someone unaware with Stalker stance and Merciless Cutthroat. Now you maximize Stalker stance time, but a foe can run if you don't hold him still. The damage is the same. If you've played RtCW:Enemy Territory, you'll know how much fun this can be. If you're detected with no Monk around? Gank city, lol. That's as much balance as you can ask for. Of course you'll attack only when your teammates mix it up from the front. No way the full combo goes down if you're alone surrounded by opponents (eh, unless you Archane Mimicry Shadow Form... THAT would be cool).

Better?

Siren · Mar 27, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

I'm not trying to make another Sprint Warrior here, though. If I were, why would I even be going along with the "art of invisibility" idea? If I wanted to create another cookie cutter DPS machine, I certainly wouldn't be keeping any speed reductions, either.

But you'll find that in my suggestions, speed reductions are still there. I'm perfectly fine with a speed reduction when the Ass (there's got to be a better abbreviation for that) goes invisible. If they were even able to move at normal speed, it'd become a skill that shouldn't be in the game as far as I'm concerned.

I find your assessment of Assassins not getting their best opportunities through speed a bit questionable, too. Assassins are all about using a faster attack rate, faster movement, faster positioning, etc., to get the drop on their target. It's a class that is hit-and-run entirely. That's entirely speed-based.

A Sprint Warrior is nothing more than a Killing Machine with a speed boost designed solely for catching up to a target.

Assassins, on the other hand, use speed boosts for what is basically pulling a Nightcrawler Kill. (Incidentally, I'd love to see a skill called Nightcrawler, heh)

So that's why I'm leery of not including any type of speed boost for a skill of this type (and I still think 50% speed reduction is way too much).

You can go Incognito, okay. If you have Incognito, what's the point of Shadow Stalker then? Isn't it serving the same function already? You're behind enemy lines and they're not noticing. You can stagger them so if your Incognito is broken, you can then hop into Shadow Stalker and go silent?

Well what about Spirit Walk being a spell? Seems like that'd jam up Incognito, wouldn't it?

Come to think of it, nearly all of the Shadow Step techniques are spells. How are you getting close to your opponents then? Running up and using Incog? Is Incog a spell? Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?

And if so, what's to stop the enemies from zeroing you immediately in the first place? Surely hitting 'C' before you go Incog would target you, right?

When you do go Incog, even after they've targeted you, does their target lock break? Do their attacks have "Invalid Target" pop-up? Are they still able to target you? Still able to attack you, perhaps even using the mouse to click on you?

If not, then why do you even need Shadow Stalker? You've already got Shadow Stalker, and it's called Incognito. Without major improvement to Shadow Stalker, Incognito might as well be the Elite version of the idea.

I think if given these two skills, and given the Elite status of Shadow Stalker, you need to make Shadow Stalker worth using. Otherwise, it'll just become yet another one of the Elite skills in the game that's actually overshadowed by its "regular" counterpart. Shadow Stalker desperately needs to be clearly superior to Incognito. I think Incog is fine as it is, so that means Shadow Stalker needs a major buff here, and again, I think that major buff is something similar to what I've been suggesting:

Quote:

Shadow Stalker (Stance): For 1-15 seconds, you move 5-15% faster. When you approach an enemy for melee combat, you enter shadow form, concealed from all eyes except other Assassins. You lose the speed boost and move 20% slower than your normal speed. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Shadow Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or become enchanted.

5E, 0 cast time, 30 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

Hell, if we really want to make Shadow Stalker the superior skill out of these two, maybe even drop the recharge time down to 30 seconds, and decrease the duration to 1-15. *edits it* Yeah, that looks better.

What I'm seeing for Shadow Stalker is the following, from the enemy's point of view:

Quote:

The opposing team is approaching, with an Assassin almost in-tandem with the team's (Sprint) Warriors, probably pulling ahead just a little bit. They're close to the front line, and as they cross into your aggro bubbles, the Assassin vanishes, both from the physical field and from your radar.

It is at that moment when you realize the Assassin hasn't Net Err 7'd out; instead of lagging out, or exiting the game, that Assassin is now stalking your teammates.

I think that kind of situation would be pretty intense, wouldn't you think? One of the major goals of a skill of this nature is psychological warfare, right? I think it'd be pretty unsettling to see a rushing (speed-boosted) Assassin completely vanish when he or she gets in range.

What do you think?

arredondo · Mar 27, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

You can go Incognito, okay. If you have Incognito, what's the point of Shadow Stalker then? Isn't it serving the same function already?

Nope, the new descrip shows that Shadow Stalker has lost its concealment properties and had its recharge decreased.

You're behind enemy lines and they're not noticing. You can stagger them so if your Incognito is broken, you can then hop into Shadow Stalker and go silent?

Yep

Well what about Spirit Walk being a spell? Seems like that'd jam up Incognito, wouldn't it?

Nope

Come to think of it, nearly all of the Shadow Step techniques are spells. How are you getting close to your opponents then? Running up and using Incog? Is Incog a spell?

Nope, I've listed Incognito as a skill from the get-go since spells and enchants cancel Shadow Stalker stance, and you can't be in two stances at once. Incognito is the skill of making yourself look exactly like the enemy... there's no "magic" to it. You can use this skill from beyond the radar screen if you wish, let alone the aggro circle. How you use your skill and wits to get in undetected is up to the player.

I repeat, this is VERY doable already in games like RtCW:ET. I had a blast as a spy by leaving the main battleground area, travelling to the enemy's hideout, staying out of direct view and then wreaking havok when the time was right. I'd either climb on their roof with my silenced sniper rifle, picking them off from behind from a well hidden spot while they battled my team up front, I'd sneak into a room with 5-6 guards who were protecting the gold that we needed to steal, just so I can grab it an run when my buddies stormed the front.. etc. All this isn't possible in GW, but you CAN fool people to at least not notice you if you play it smartly.

Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?

For Incognito, no.

And if so, what's to stop the enemies from zeroing you immediately in the first place? Surely hitting 'C' before you go Incog would target you, right?

You can change your clothes at any time. No need to do it when the enemy can see you.

When you do go Incog, even after they've targeted you, does their target lock break?

Nope, so don't do it in front of them

Do their attacks have "Invalid Target" pop-up? Are they still able to target you? Still able to attack you, perhaps even using the mouse to click on you?

They can target and attack you at anytime, just like RtCW:ET. You lose your disguse BTW when they do attack you.

If not, then why do you even need Shadow Stalker? You've already got Shadow Stalker, and it's called Incognito. Without major improvement to Shadow Stalker, Incognito might as well be the Elite version of the idea.

Shadow Stalker's main benefit is that you can freely chain unlimited Criticals until the timer expires. To do that, you have to get to the enemy - stalking them. Stalking is a slow, deliberate act. You can do it without Incognito, but your chances improve if you have it because the naked eye won't easily give you away. The benefit is a rewarding initial surprise strike of Merciless Cutthroat which does a ton of damage followed by the quick followups.

Getting in takes talent and skill... Spirit Walk isn't the only way, but just a suggestion. If your Warriors are at "midfield" fighting a group, you can use Death Charge to get in close after you go Incognito, and then backwalk away from the skirmish towards the healers. I used that method in RtCW:ET as away of slipping into the enemy's guarded areas while the action was going on everywhere. Once you are visually behind the enemy, you appear as a clump of color not unlike theirs so half the time they won't pay it mind...

Slip into Stalker Stance, creep up on the target, and gank them with the Cutthroat combo.

EDIT: Now I see why it looks confusing. When I changed Incognito's descrip, I didn't fix the text of Shadow Stalker like I intended to. My fault... they should read:

Quote:

Shadow Stalker (Stance): For 3..9 [11 at L16] seconds, you move 50% slower. While in Shadow Stalker stance, if your next attack hits an opponent from behind, all of your following attacks result in Critical Hits. Shadow Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 30 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

Quote:

Incognito (Skill): For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent, and you appear on any enemy's radar as their team color. Incognito ends if you cast a spell or attack with a weapon other than knives.

10E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

It should make better sense now.

fiery · Mar 27, 2006, 02:54 PM // 14:54

This can be considered a ganker? Assassing runs fast to other guild hall, sees people coming out of the base, goes invisble. Than goes kills henchies.

Sagius Truthbarron · Mar 27, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

What's the point of a 7-9 second stance that only make you invisible to radars, and has a 45 second recharge? I wouldn't use that.

viper008 · Mar 27, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Assassins should have dual kantana swords just like in the trailer video

Warcheif_Jonval · Mar 27, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Ok, with the Incognito skill, wouldent a team comprising mostly of Ninja (im just gonna call them that from now on, i dont feel like trying to spell its name)
unbalance the game.

8 dagger +4from runes = 12
12 Critical
11 Shadow Arts

Incognito
dash
sprint
Critical eye
1 lead of your choice
1 off hand of your choice
Critical STrike
Mobeus Strike

From what ive seen with just the application of the 4 hit combo and critical eye, things die fast and I dont stop useing the combo untill i get unlucky or everything dies.

so, with this in mind, wouldent 4 or 5 ninja, all sprinting/dashing into the guild hall cloaked essentialy, cause some major unbalance in the game and become the next Ubernerf target?

There is nothing wrong with the skill in my eyes except that its very concept is wildly over powered and balancing it out will make it useless.

Siren · Mar 27, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Nope, the new descrip shows that Shadow Stalker has lost its concealment properties and had its recharge decreased.

Then what's the point of Shadow Stalker? The original intent of it was to shadow stalk. If you're no longer concealed...why bother using it? Just to try to get All-Criticals? Why not use Critical Eye then, with Critical Strikes at a higher level? And most Assassins would normally run Critical Strikes in the 10-12 range I think, particularly if they're using Daggers.

For the next point, I'm going to repeat my initial question: "Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?"

Your answer:

Quote:

You can use this skill from beyond the radar screen if you wish, let alone the aggro circle. How you use your skill and wits to get in undetected is up to the player.[...]For Incognito, no.[...]You can change your clothes at any time. No need to do it when the enemy can see you.[...]Nope, so don't do it in front of them[...]They can target and attack you at anytime, just like RtCW:ET. You lose your disguse BTW when they do attack you.

I've isolated the major parts to this. To others reading the thread, am I the only one who thinks this is absurdly imbalanced, to the point of being broken?

This is a skill that basically hides your team status. It can be used from anywhere on the field. When you use it, it copies a random opponent. It allows you to run at normal speed and if you so desired, if you've got a team behind you, you wouldn't even need Shadow Stalker (Incognito makes it obsolete). Am I the only one who sees some major balance issues here?

Incognito's range desperately needs to be at the very least limited to radar range--but it'd be much better limited to either the "in the area" aggro bubble or a little bit outside it. For such powerful effects, giving it any kind of range beyond In The Area is stretching things a lot.

And anyway, the skill breaks when your opponents hit C (because we all know how Space-Bar happy people are when they see a target right next to them), so all players need to do to keep tabs on Incog players is periodically tap C. This isn't an FPS where you have manual aiming. That's why something like Incog works in an FPS: the computer isn't controlling the targeting like in GW.

Quote:

Getting in takes talent and skill... Spirit Walk isn't the only way, but just a suggestion. If your Warriors are at "midfield" fighting a group, you can use Death Charge to get in close after you go Incognito, and then backwalk away from the skirmish towards the healers.

Your latest description of Incognito:

Quote:

Incognito (Skill): For 8..18 [21 at L16] seconds you will change your appearance to look like a random opponent, and you appear on any enemy's radar as their team color. Incognito ends if you cast a spell or attack with a weapon other than knives.

10E, 2 second cast, 30 sec. recharge.
Shadow Arts attribute line.

I've underlined a certain sentence in the above description. Now look at the latest description of Death's Charge, barring any recent alterations to its skill type:

Quote:

Death's Charge - Spell
Shadow Step to target foe. If that foe has more health than you, you are healed for 40...112.

Notice anything unusual about what I underlined there?

Incognito is overpowered and at the same time completely broken because it doesn't work at all.

It's overpowered because there are pretty much zero limitations on its range. You can use the skill anywhere, apparently, and see no difference in its performance. You don't need to worry about being in range at all, because there is no range for it. There are only 9 seconds of downtime between its duration and cooldown.

And it's broken because no matter if you use it completely outside the radar range, or if you use it within your own Warriors, the enemy hits C for closest target and you're screwed. That's no skill on their part, like an FPSer figuring out you aren't one of their own and then manually placing their targeting reticle on your head. Hitting C here has the computer attacking for you. Any goal for Incognito fooling the opposition is instantly destroyed because of one key on the keyboard.

The confusion was never due to your skill descriptions, arredondo. My concerns are that these two skills aren't as balanced or well-constructed as you think. The philosophy behind them is good, but your execution is very flawed, and it still is.

EDIT: Shadow Stalker should make you invisible to everyone except Ritualists. They don't use their physical eyes anyway, so it makes perfect sense they'd see Shadow Forms. And if they want to allow their team mates to see the Shadow Stalker Assassin:

Quote:

My Eyes Are Your Eyes
For 5-10 seconds, target ally is able to see Assassins concealed in Shadow Form.

I'd expect 10 or 15 energy cost, 1 or 2 second cast time, and a 20 second recharge.

fiery · Mar 27, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

So long henchies for VOD, cause of ninja gankers.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 27, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Forget auto crit...

how about 50% armor penetration for your next 3 attacks?

Autocritting every single hit is a little uh... Godlike? Or maybe ignoring all armor and treating the foe as having AL 0? lol for 3 hits though...